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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 28

Admin

Administrator
@LemonDrop
Surely you know some people use inpainting or edit a photo manually in Photoshop.
Which is why the editor tag will be set to work with ai composition, at least for starters (and we may just move to artist in the long run).
I feel like you haven’t even bothered looking into how this is being handled here, or on derpi, and just want to complain. And yap.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 27

LemonDrop

@Admin
So what about all the AI art that is more than just entering a prompt? Surely you know some people use inpainting or edit a photo manually in Photoshop. The only term which encapsulates what people are doing is artist, prompting is merely describing part of the toolchain. It’d be like calling all digital artists “Photoshop interactors” or “tablet scribblers” as that’s a more literal descriptor of what actions they are doing, but it fails to encapsulate why exactly they are using those tools (to create art), and is of course needlessly specific to the point of not being a consistent thing to tag stuff with. Info like what sort of prompt, model and other tools one uses and etc is just information you’d put in the description in this case. Being needlessly reductionist like that is just understandably insulting to people trying to practice an artform lol.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 26

Admin

Administrator
@LemonDrop
I wouldn’t say that means I don’t deserve a tag
There’s nothing stopping you here (or there) from having an associated tag.
This is why everyone is an artist
Which makes the term meaningless, so why vie for having the tag called “artist” and not something more descriptive (ie. useful) of what the person actually did to create something?
If everyone is an artist for everything they create, then the term has no meaning at all. But this is an imageboard, a place where people fastidiously try to categorize things.
And for such purposes, there’s a distinction made between prompter (someone that enters a prompt and some settings into a generator to get an image), editor (someone that edits already existing work in minor ways), and artist (someone that creates something wholly new). Derpi also has photographer, which likely won’t apply here, and if either place hosted fics there’d also be a writer tag.
Wanting so much to be labelled “artist” comes off as either some sort of extreme pedantry about the term, or revanchism over twitter etc. having been so hostile against generative AI.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 25

LemonDrop

@Admin
Well it sounds like you’re just trying to control what art can be. Bananas taped to walls are art and blaming contemporary artists and society in general for thinking so is not gonna work. It doesn’t mean you have to appreciate those types of art but I don’t see why you think other people cannot. You have some vision of what you want all art to to be like but it’s not going to align with everyone else’s and that’s probably not a good mindset for running an art site.
“Artist” is not a descriptor of status, rather one describing an activity. This is why everyone is an artist at some point essentially as everyone will perform this activity to some extent through their life to creatively express themselves. Most people will not claim to be an artist when talking about their career/hobby or whatever though because generally in that context you’re choosing which activity you practice the most or have the most skill in (even if you’ve say dabbled in art just like everyone else has). Tags are purely describing what is going on with a given work, not what someone’s occupation is, so person who created the art is an artist and it’s not trying to claim that’s their main career path. Simple as that.
I for instance have created some art pieces on Derpi as well as some photography as I do both things occasionally with my time, but I would not describe my main choice of hobby as either of those and only mention it if I was making a list to rank which ones I practice from most to least. I wouldn’t say that means I don’t deserve a tag though so people can’t find the things I’ve done as again it’s not an indicator of skill level or mastery, just a grouping of common things based on creator.
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Tagging Discussion » General "Whoa this tag is missing stuff!" Thread » Post 25

Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 24

Nocturn

Moderator
Adjutant
I’m honestly all for sticking with ‘creator’ when we’re assigning a title in a tag—like we already do in User Links. And keeping ‘artist’ just for how it’s used in Takedowns and Rules. Maybe it’s selfish, but it lowkey makes things way easier when handling image reports. That way, when someone says ‘artist,’ I know it’s about Rule #1 and not something I actually want to do, like helping someone set up their tag here.
I honestly don’t care what people call themselves, as long as when someone says ‘artist,’ it’s clear they’re talking about what that means in Rule #1.
My one caveat would be if the site ever decides to extend copyright protections to some AI art—like how Derpi uses ai assisted or their new ai composition tag. Still waiting to see how that all shakes out with ‘artist’ tags. Maybe things will be clearer by January.
It feels like a distraction right now. I’d rather not deal with it and just hope we don’t end up with a tag that’s baked into the rules that gives it a meaning, or accidentally makes people think they have rights they don’t actually have, that we will have to deal with later.
@Admin
I trust you to find the right balance, and make it make sense.
I’m gonna ghost this thread now since this isn’t my bikeshed, and I’ve talked about it enough. As long as the rules and tags are in sync, it’s all good.
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Tagging Discussion » General "Whoa this tag is missing stuff!" Thread » Post 24

Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 23

AIPonyAnon

@Admin
Prompter seems like the more pragmatic and descriptive choice when talking about the person who prompted for the image, which seems to me the better choice for a tagging system. Within the context of the tagging system, worrying about the definition of art and artist seems like a good way to waste a lot of time.
However, using prompter would imply the use of separate tags for the same person doing a basic sketch, generation, and inpainting, which seems like a good way to add excessive noise to the tags. As others have suggested, creator might be a decent compromise, as it’s a lot less philosophically charged than artist.
Individual tags for prompting, inpainting/editing, and arting (in the derpi sense) could be used in situations in which multiple people are collaborating. The correct tag for arting might bring the whole discussion up again, so perhaps bikeshedding about it is inevitable.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 22

Admin

Administrator
@LemonDrop
medium
I typed in “pony” and pressed shift-enter. Default model settings, touched nothing else, you can check the chunk. Does that deserve an “artist” tag for me?
I’d say “no”. And frankly neither do Jackson Pollock or whoever taped a banana to a wall deserve to be called “artist”. If we go by some “anything can be art” or whatever definition then the term “artist” has absolutely no meaning at all and thus there’s no reason to want to have it in the first place. Outside of some revanchist sentiment, I guess.
So no, I’d very much like to keep terms like artist or editor or whatever else reserved for people that put more effort into what they create than the average tagger/uploader puts in when typing into an image’s tag box.
  1. “But derpi calls anyone that puts any two lines together an artist!”
  • Yes and I hate that, but it was inherited from ponibooru and socially enforced thanks to hacks like Christopher Wool or Damien Hirst. If I could have changed it without starting WW3 I would have.
  1. “Why not call people that do ai composition artists, then?”
  • Ideally we will, both here and on derpi. Right now, what we’re seeing is what we expected: a lot of people going through their old raw gens and retagging them from ai generated to ai composition, either to “save” them, or out of spite for the new policy / the site. We’ll revisit the topic once those shenanigans are over.
  1. “You just hate AI and this place is set up just to honeypot AI users to pariah them and then shut the place down!”
  • No. I want this place to succeed, and I want people to use AI to create beautiful and amazing things. But what’s been going on in derpi, and elsewhere on the internet, really isn’t leading towards that. For every 1 person that starts putting some work and talent in, that curate or edit what they share, and produces a good looking image… another 9 pop up that type in something like “sally acorn huge boobs large ass hot sexy”, batch of 20, and upload them all regardless of all the horrific flaws and artifacts.
  • Allowing, or even promoting the latter is one of the big reasons AI is looked down on by so many, and it’s what’s keeping the space from flourishing. Sites are flooded with low quality images and it drowns out those that put in the effort, or make it seem like they just got a lucky RNG. A lot of people could have been spending the last two years learning new skills and working on how to improve their art but instead sat waiting for some next model release or technological advancement to fix the issues for them.
  • So yeah, I actually do want to get to the point where people aren’t looked down on for having made something with AI, and I don’t believe the “laissez-faire” policy many appear to want will ever get us there.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 21

Tagging Discussion » "Generator:" tags should not imply "ai generated" » Post 1

Scarlet Ribbon

True Wildcard
@tyto4tme4l
This is already how a lot of people are using it, and I agree that checkpoint would be a better term, but I also imagine a lot of other people prefer not to let on to exactly what checkpoints they’re using, so having a generic catch-all is probably better in a lot of cases.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 19

Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 18

Zealousmagician

So how about for AI composition images? There’s a large degree of intentionality in the changes involved in those images that clearly result in a fully realised vision that was being worked towards from the initial generation (or perhaps even before that). Is such a process not deserving of being called a form of art itself? Would you say that with everything I- for example- have made, I’m only an editor and could not be considered an artist in any fashion?
The AI composition tag on Derpibooru asks that the editor tag be used instead of the artist tag, and I don’t think it should, at the very least not here.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 17

Tagging Discussion » derpibooru exclusive should be aliased » Post 1

LemonDrop

Why would it, that tag implied that things were exclusively uploaded on Derpi, it wouldn’t make sense to alias existing instances of that tag. It would make sense though to have a new tantabus exclusive tag for people who solely upload their AI art here though, depending on how useful of information that is (might not be that important really).
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Tagging Discussion » General Tag Discussion » Post 2

Background Pony #FFEE
Will subsequent tag changes made on Derpibooru get synced to the posts that had already been imported? Goodness knows I spend enough time cleaning things up and tagging the oft-forgotten basics, I’d hate to have to do it twice.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 16

LemonDrop

@Delly
Weird, last time I checked you can be an artist the moment your pencil touches the paper without “years of mastery”. Guess you don’t think very highly of most artists. Imagine telling all the people on Derpi who have only been drawing for a few months “yeah you don’t have countless years of mastery so uhhh you don’t get an artist tag”, just insane lol.
Also I find it amusing that people’s standards are essentially requiring 10+ years of AI art experience on their resume to apply to the “artist” job when this sort of generative AI has only been a thing for 2-3 years now.
@Heat Sink
Appeal to popularity is not a valid argument.
@Annalee
Correct, that rule is outdated and carried over from Derpi and should be removed which kills two birds with one stone. The only reason that rule existed was a “peaceful coexistence” compromise with having both types of artists on the same site. This is a site for AI art specifically now though so caring about what existing digital artists think is no longer a concern as they will not be uploading here anyways.
@Teaspoon
Well I do think they deserve that title because that’s technically what art is. I never claimed it was good art, it’s dogshit art. A lot of art on Derpi is dogshit too though if you haven’t noticed, but that’s ok because learning is a slow process.
Derpi always has been more of an art collective and not a “curated art” site with a quality bar like something such as e621 is, so literally anyone who scribbles on a piece of paper is considered an artist with just as much effort as it takes to generate a low quality image via AI.
Anyways to me that seems like something solvable by just providing upload limitations to discourage quantity over quality at least to have some bare minimum standards in what is being produced. Not really the end of the world and not really an argument against why people using AI aren’t artists.
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Tagging Discussion » General "Whoa this tag is missing stuff!" Thread » Post 23

Tagging Discussion » General "Whoa this tag is missing stuff!" Thread » Post 22

Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 15

Zerowinger

3-3/4" Army Man Fan
@Lord Waite
So the contest is based on the output quantity, not the quality or popularity? (Daily theme contests on NightCafe are based on popular vote, with only one submission per person)
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 14

Lord Waite

@Teaspoon
Probably worth noting that civitai is running daily contests right now that give you 400 of their on-site currency, buzz, if you submit 20 images using the lora provided. It’s very much encouraging people to spam out 20 low quality images a day.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 13

Teaspoon

poni
@LemonDrop
All that considered I think I still lean more towards “artist” than “creator”, but either is better than “prompter” which might as well be an insult in a place like this.
I don’t know if you have, but I’d suggest perusing civitAI; there are accounts with 12k images made in just a few months, practically 90% of their images are definitely horrible. I’d certainly not think anyone slapping in 12 words (optimistically) into the prompt box, not changing default settings, and hitting “Generate Forever” to churn out 250 images in an hour and do no editing or curation at all on them deserves to be called an artist.
Purely outside of the pedantry of what is and isn’t “art”, it’d be an organizational nightmare to separate out the people that do put some work and effort into their creations.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 12

Nocturn

Moderator
Adjutant
@Delly
also, on this site, the term artist has a specific meaning under rule #1: it’s for people who make original works that are copyright-protected. calling prompters “artists” could make things confusing and mess with how that rule applies.
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Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 11

Tagging Discussion » "prompter:" should change to "artist:" » Post 10

Delly

Administrator
Certified Blueberry
Comparing traditional artistry with prompting is offending everyone, who has spend countless years mastering the art of drawing.
The two are nowhere near on the same level, or at least the kind of prompting that this site is intended for isn’t (As actual art with only some smaller parts being done by AI is still welcome on Derpibooru)
Therefore, the prefix will not be changing. Learn to actually draw if you want to be an artist.
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